The Road Ahead: Sustainable Vehicles Today and in the Future – Part 1 – transcript

Ideas to Innovation


Robert Redding: I find it a pain to go and spend even just three minutes putting petrol in my car, I resent it. I don’t want to do it. An electric car that takes 30 minutes or an hour or four hours to charge, that terrifies me.

Ed White: One of the more immature technology platforms is again, charging systems. It actually comes out in our model as more immature than autonomous technologies.

David Marques: There are so many applications that are currently not viable due to the sheer size and volume and weight of battery.

Brian King: For me, the answer is easy, and it’s self-driving vehicles. I want to take a nap and wake up when I’m there.

Voiceover: The Ideas to Innovation podcast from Clarivate.

Joan Walker: Hello, I’m Joan Walker, and welcome to the Ideas to Innovation podcast. In this brand new series, we’ll be talking to the people who live and breathe the process of turning ideas into innovation. The technologies that we depend on, the medicines that we rely on the electricity that powers our day-to-day life. They were all once ideas before becoming inventions, inventions that have changed our lives for the better. Join the conversation with experts and industry leaders to discuss innovation at its core.

The electric vehicle counts among the handful of modern-day inventions that has truly captured our imagination. In fact, the electric vehicle captured even the imagination of one of the world’s most famous inventors, Thomas Edison. Edison saw the potential in the electrification of vehicles. The early electric vehicle enjoyed a brief surge of popularity in the late 1900s’ and early 20th century, before being eclipsed by its petroleum-fueled counterpart.

Electric vehicles would only burst back onto the scene almost 100 years later. Today, Tesla may be the most recognizable company in the electric vehicle sector, but traditional automakers from American auto giants Ford and GM, and Japanese powerhouses Nissan and Toyota, to German brands BMW and Volkswagen are well and truly in the race to electrify road vehicles and accelerate the sustainable transportation revolution.

In a new report from Clarivate, the road ahead, sustainable vehicles today and in the future, we look at the fascinating history of the electric vehicle, the innovation spark that finally fueled its mass-market production, and wider consumer acceptance and the state of innovation in the electric vehicles sector today.

Joining us today in this 2 part special episode to talk about the new report and much more are several subject matter experts from Clarivate.

We have Ed White, Head of analytics, Robert Redding, Director of Government and Content Strategy, Brian King, Head of Policy and Advocacy, and David Marques, Principal consultant, Litigation Products and Strategy.

Hello, one and all. Now, to get the ball rolling, I would love for each of you to tell us a little bit more about yourself and we’ll stay on topic and I’d really like to ask you, what was your first car and indeed, what are you driving today? Ed, let’s start with you.

Ed: Thank you, Joan. Great to be back on the podcast. I lead our intellectual property analytics services group here at Clarivate. Part of our advisory and analytics practice and so I am my team are very much part of the process of measuring and forecasting our trends in technology sectors, just like electric vehicles.

My very first car that I purchased was a very, very secondhand Vauxhall Astra that we managed to make the local news with on almost its first outing by breaking down on the M4 slip road at the Chiswick roundabout, which is a very big intersection in West London, and-

Joan: Know it well.

Ed: -thereby causing quite a big traffic jam so not my finest moment in automobiling.

Joan: What are you driving now Ed?

Ed: Today, well, we’re a two-car household so we have a small Fiat Panda to run around in and we are very lucky to have a Jaguar F-Pace.

Joan: Nice. Very smart. Robert, may I turn to you and ask you exactly the same thing. What was your first car and what are you driving now?

Robert: Hi Joan. My first car, if I remember rightly, was an old Toyota Corona probably a model that a lot of people listening might not even be aware of because it’s so long ago. I think it was made in 1975. I had it for a couple of years. I remember I paid a mate of mine to spray paint it because it was silver when I bought it and I wanted a red car so he painted it red and in the first time I cleaned it, most of that paint just came straight off.

Joan: Fantastic did it look like a little rust bucket.

Robert: It wasn’t the best car let’s put it that way. Well, to put it in context, when I sold it, I think I got $50 for it in Australia., It wasn’t a very valuable car.

Joan: But valuable to you got you from A to B.

Robert: Well, it kind of. Sometimes it got me from A to B, so its got lots of memories, let’s put it that way.

Joan: What are you driving now, Robert?

Robert: I’m actually driving an old Mercedes. It’s about 20 years old. It’s probably pretty reasonable from an environmental point of view because I’m getting my money’s worth from it.

Joan: Almost tipping into that classic car, you’re getting there, aren’t you?

Robert: We’re getting close.

Joan: Thank you for that. Brian, may I fire the same questions to you? First car and what do you driving now?

Brian: Thanks, Joan it’s great to be here today. In true fashion to where I grew up, my first car was a Chevrolet pickup truck. My grandfather was the service manager at the local Chevy dealerships, so you didn’t have a choice, it had to be a Chevy and a lot of memories in a truck that didn’t have what we would call a feature today. Neither a bell nor a whistle to be found but it did mean a lot to freedom at 15 years old.

I think we’ll talk a bit about brands today. Funny family story is that my grandfather was famous for never even letting a car come home, a new car, until he had gone and put Goodyear tires on the car, regardless of brand new car, regardless of what tires came on, they had to have Goodyear tires before they could make it to the driveway. That could be influenced by the fact that my grandmother was from Akron, Ohio, where Goodyear is headquartered, but regardless, that brand meant safety in the tires for the family. It was something that he insisted on. It’s a funny family story.

Joan: Excellent. What are you driving now?

Brian: Working from home these days, actually, for the past few years, I don’t drive much at all, typically, whatever the Uber driver shows up in is how I get around. My wife drives a Toyota SUV to work back and forth and that’s about it.

Joan: Wow, excellent. You, as we would say here, you’re on Shanks’s pony, which means that you would walk from A to B.

Brian: I suppose your would, yes.

Joan: David, may I fire the same questions to you? What was your first car and what are you driving now?

David: Thank you, Joan, and Nice to be here for the first time. My first car was my parents’ old 1995 Honda Civic. It had a 1.5-liter VTEC engine. It was really a great car, perhaps a bit of a dangerous car to give your son for the first time, [chuckles] but it was great. It saddens me that I no longer have it. To the next question, which is, which car am I driving? Right now I am between cars because car crashes do happen and my last car went to the junkyard.

Joan: Oh.

David: It happens. One thing, I’ll be honest about this, and very upfront, I don’t think– I’m based in Lisbon, Portugal, and my country doesn’t really have the infrastructure right now to give me the confidence to get an electric car. My next car will not be electric. however, I’m thinking something along the EcoBoost line from Ford, that would be nice.

It’s not that I’m not fascinated by electric cars, whenever an electric car passes by me, I always think about that movie, Demolition Man, in which everything is with electric cars and the sound they have in that movie it’s exactly the sound that Tesla’s make. It’s so perfect and it always reminds me of that.

Joan: Excellent. Well, I must just share with you my first car was a Mini and it was sky blue apart from the patches of rust. I bought it from a colleague and he didn’t want any money and I knew that he like gin so I bought him a bottle of gin, so Mini in exchange for a bottle of gin. Fast forward to today, many years later, and I’m driving a Mini Cooper which I love because obviously it’s got a BMW engine and I like to say that she is a BMW, but in punk clothing, my Mini. My next one will be an electric Mini I think.

Thank you for that. That’s really interesting to hear where we all started with our vehicles. Now, it seems that not a day goes by without news of another new electric vehicle launch electric vehicle investment by automakers or governments boosting their electric vehicle infrastructure. Reading the report, I have to say that the history and the current state of the electric vehicle industry are nothing short of fascinating. I’m glad you’re all here to actually elaborate on that.

It’s been truly impressive how electric vehicles have made the leap from being a niche product to being on the cusp of mass-market adoption. Ed, can we kick off with you and tell us how innovation in electric vehicles has evolved in the past two decades and what were the crucial milestones, if you can pinpoint those for us?

Ed: Absolutely. We can pinpoint them. One of the things that we do is we apply the tools of something we call or is called Innovation Evolution Theory. This is the theory that almost all technologies, whatever it is, follow a set pathway in the way that they appear in patent activity. What that means is that we can narrate the story of how the field has evolved and progressed.

Technologies start slowly, and then they inflect upwards into a phase of rapidly increasing activity. Then they inflect again and tail off in those activity levels as they mature or they get replaced. Applying that model to electric vehicles, we can firstly state that EV technology as a whole is still within that fast-growth phase of its development S-curve. In fact, if anything it’s accelerating, but that overall trend hides sub narratives and switchovers in approach and the type of vehicle innovation is being targeted towards.

Initially, we see a fairly even split between hybrid vehicles, which are vehicles that contain both an internal combustion engine and a battery. We see fuel cell electric vehicles, which is a car that contains a fuel like hydrogen which is then passed through a fuel cell to generate electricity that then drives motors and fully battery electric vehicles that need to be charged. Initially, we see this equal split.

That has now since changed with the focus on fuel cell electric vehicles really tailing off around 2008 and then a major milestone in 2013 when purely battery-electric innovation outpaced hybrid electric for the first time. That trend has since continued right through to today. Hybrid electric is showing signs of tail off battery-electric technology is accelerating.

Then lastly, in the last few years, we see this uptick in plug-in hybrid technology, which is a further blend of BEV and AGV, but technologically leans on both of them.

Joan: Ed, thank you for that. I think it’s fair to say that any discussion about electric vehicles would be incomplete without talking about the environmental angle which obviously we are all uber-aware of. Data from the international energy agency showed that in 2018 transport accounted for a fifth of global carbon dioxide emissions, and almost half of that, about 45% came from passenger vehicles.

Electrifying road transportation is key to the global fight against climate change. That much is clear. There’s a definite sense of urgency and governments play a pivotal role. What are some of the measures that have been introduced to encourage and hopefully accelerate the uptake of electric vehicles? Robert, could we ask you to respond to that?

Robert: Sure. It’s a balance of carrot and stick. If you remember when electric vehicles first came out, they were pretty expensive. Even today, they’re still relatively expensive compared to petrol and diesel cars. To incentivize owners, I think governments put in place grants, certainly here in the UK, it was possible to get a government subsidy to make electric vehicles more affordable.

They’re still in place. I think the level of the grants have been reducing over time, but typically now for a passenger vehicle in the UK, the government grants still up around £2,000 to £3,000. I think for large commercial vehicles, there are still significant grants up to about £16,000. There’s also been exemptions from the congestion zone here in London. Where I live, for example, there’s a daily charge of £15 at the moment for driving through Central London.

Joan: Absolutely, and it’s seven days a week, isn’t it?

Robert: Exactly. It never goes away. There’s an advantage for low emission vehicles to be exempt from that. If you’re an electric vehicle, that’ll save you £15 a day. There are discounts on parking as well. Electric vehicle owners pay less for parking in cities. In the area of London where I live Westminster, there’s very little off-street parking. I have to buy a residence permit each year costs around about £160 but if you have an electric vehicle that resident’s parking sticker is free.

I think there are subsidies typically for the installation of charging facilities. If you want to charge your vehicle at home there, the UK government will give you a grant of around about £350 to make it more affordable, to set up that infrastructure. They’re all carrots, but there’s also a little bit of stick as well because current legislation in the UK will stop the sale of new petrol and diesel vehicles in 2030. If the incentives aren’t enough, you won’t be able to buy a new petrol or diesel vehicle in around about nine years’ time in the UK.

Joan: As you say, that is a huge stick, isn’t it? It’s going to be an interesting time, I think in 2030. Do you think there are going to be people kicking and screaming because they want their petrol-fueled vehicle?

Robert: I think it’s interesting. With any change in law, there are always people looking for loopholes. I’m sure there’s going to be some clever ways to try and get around that. I’m not sure what the impact is going to be, for example, on classic cars. God forbid if my car’s still going in another 9 years’ time when it’s 30 years old, are we going to struggle to put petrol in a car? I don’t know what that will mean to all of the valuable classical cars people are paying fortunes for right now, are they’re going to be less valuable, more valuable? I don’t know.

Joan: No, it’s an interesting thought. It could be like prohibition era. You go to some– wherein instead of buying hooch and your moonshine, you buy a little vessel of petrol to fill your pride and joy. It’s an interesting thought, isn’t it?

Robert: It’s going to be interesting.

Joan: I’m sure you’ve got things to add to what Robert has just said.

Ed: From a government perspective, one of the other things that we look at is actually the source of this technology and what it adds for countries economically. One of the things that we can track is where inventors live on patent applications, where are they resident? At a high level, we can see where electric vehicle innovation is actually coming from globally.

That’s a pretty interesting view because the places in the world where the big automakers are based are heavily represented in that view. Japan, South Korea, Germany, the United States, France, you can very quickly hear in your mind Toyota, Honda, Hyundai, BMW, Volkswagen, Ford, General Motors, Renault, for example, in that list. The big change that we see is the rapid increase in Chinese-based innovators.

That isn’t a trend that’s limited to electric vehicles. We see it in many different technological fields, but here it’s somewhat backed up by the rapid development of electric vehicles by Chinese automakers that many of us may not be aware of. These are companies like Geely, Chery, BYD, SAIC Changan Auto. Many of these companies actually already have holdings or partnerships in place with European car companies. For example, Volvo has a electric vehicle subsidiary called Polestar, but Volvo is itself a subsidiary of Geely.

Chery has a joint venture, for example, with Jaguar and Land Rover, and then a further facet is Japan. Japan still leads the way in the total volume of activity around electric vehicles with companies like Toyota, Nissan, Honda, making enormous investments in electric vehicles, particularly hybrid electric vehicle technology over the last 20 years. Essentially having largely produced the architecture of an electric car, the way you take energy from one or two sources, a battery, an internal combustion engine, mix it together so the rubber turns on the road and becomes a movement, but that leadership from Japan and the high level of activities actually waned in the last few years.

Joan: Interesting. Now, David, may I turn to you with the ever-growing level of inventive activity in electric vehicle technologies? What is the impact from a litigation point of view?

David: Well, much like in many other technological areas, what we observe with electrical vehicles is that with the growth of inventive activity, so number of patents, we do see also growth in litigation that follows, but this isn’t a bad thing nor is it something unique to EV technologies. It’s a natural development, it’s to be expected.

If you are in a presence of a healthy IP ecosystem, then the more valuable inventions that are out there, the more infringement cases there will be and the more invalidity cases there will be. Sorry for the non-IP practitioners that are listening to us by an invalidity case I mean lawsuits or other actions which aim at declaring that a certain patent is invalid, no, or debt, let’s call it. That’s because competitors will always be there and disputes will always take place, be it in the form of patent infringement or challenges to the validity of patents.

Sorry, coming back a bit to the specific litigation landscape of electric vehicles, as I had said before, we did observe this growth that has a positive correlation with the increase in inventive activity. What we can also observe is that currently, it has some different characteristics from the litigation that we see concerning traditional automotive technologies.

For instance, while in the traditional automotive industry, you see historically large amount of litigation, geographically focused in the US in the United States and in Europe, usually in the form of infringement cases and some patent invalidity cases as well for electric vehicle technologies. What you see is that litigation, as of now is taking place mostly in Europe, Japan, and China and that, for instance, in Europe and Japan, this comes mostly in the form of patent invalidity actions or invalidity cases.

What’s happening here is that companies are actively monitoring this field because it’s a field that has been growing a lot, a market that has been growing a lot of course it still has a lot to grow to reach the levels of combustion engines, but there’s already a lot of value attributed to these technologies, to these markets and so there is a lot of active monitoring of what’s coming out. Once it comes out, competitors are sure to either oppose your inventions or at least the patents that you’re trying to claim or even launch suits for invalidity

Of course, this isn’t to say that there are no infringement actions, of course, they exist and they also exist in the United States. It’s just that currently in the current landscape, they are of a low number when you compare it to oppositions, to invalidity suits against certain specific patents.

By now, another interesting insight that we can provide is that not only do you have this kind of litigation, but the specific technologies which are being targeted, make a lot of sense. When you look at all these oppositions, all these invalidity suits, all these attacks to companies which are trying to patent their inventions and you see what’s the bulk of inventions, or what technologies do they relate.

It’s mostly battery-related inventions. It’s inventions about electrodes, it’s inventions about battery casings, it’s invention about rechargeable cells. This is interesting because you get this from many other sources, which is, at the crucible of all this technology is our batteries. The technology for storing energy. This is also reflected in litigation and that’s a really interesting thing to observe.

Of course, all of this that I have been talking, it relates specifically to electric vehicle technologies. There’s another aspect, which I won’t explore too much in this podcast because this is a matter for a whole other event, but it’s something that surrounds both electric vehicles and traditional vehicles, which is all the litigation that surrounds right now, the automotive industry as a whole. It relates to the technological convergence that we continually see between the automotive industry and the connectivity technologies. The internet of things.

Right now you were saying you had your Mini and now you have a Mini Cooper and perhaps in the future have your Mini electrical vehicle. The thing is, in each generation of Minis you’ve got more and more chips in your car, more and more electrical parts, more and more connectivity. That has been met, especially in the litigation arena, with a lot of litigation, not of infringement cases, because-

Joan: I can only imagine.

David: -you’re spreading yourself to other technologies. Of course, that has a specific cost. You will have many more stakeholders to be aware, many standards to be aware and of course, this creates a whole phenomenon of its own, which is all the IoT-related litigation that’s going on, but as I said, that’s a whole topic for another time.

Joan: A whole other topic. I’m going to pick up on the positive from that, which is the encouragement that eats accelerating business. If I can just focus on that, the acceleration of the electrification of passenger vehicles, and clearly a huge amount of interest in electric vehicles and consumer demand is fast rising, but the reality from the figures is that electric vehicles make up just 2.6% of global car sales and 1% of global car stock. I think the big question is why is that? Ed, maybe I can throw that in your direction.

Ed: Largely it’s three problems. As Robert mentioned earlier, electric vehicles tend to be more expensive and consumers are worried about how far they can drive in them. Tied up in that is limited charging infrastructure and the fact that the three-minute fill at the petrol station or the gas station is not emulated in a three-minute charge to fall for electric vehicles.

Cost, range, and charge time, those last two quite intertwined together. What we want to do is figure out the state of solution to those problems. How can we get that 1% of global car stock up by overcoming these problems? One of the things that we do in the Derwent World Patents Index, which is our premier patented ideas database, is we read the original patent application and we write little paragraphs around things like what the invention is, what it’s used for, and so on.

One of those paragraphs is why it was invented. What was the problem that was solved by what they invented? What did they improve? We call this the DDA car advantage field. It’s a fabulous source of contextualized text across millions of inventions that we can mine for categories of solutions. Things like cost, range, and charge time, for example. Then what we can do is we can apply those S-curve models I was talking about earlier and look at the shape of the curve. Where in their evolution are they, how solved are they?

The answer that we found is that things like cost and safety are the most solved, the most evolved, which speaks to the fact that electric vehicles they’re on sale, they’re in the hands of consumers, safety is obviously a prerequisite. It also speaks to a prediction that electric vehicles are going to become much cheaper over the next few years, but the unsolved problem is how long they take to charge and that is a really big issue. It is a wake-up call because it is a barrier to uptake.

There’s multiple ways of solving that technical innovation is only part of the solution there as Robert was saying regulation is a big part of that. Business models have a big part to play here in terms of there is room here for services businesses to potentially be part of how this is solved. From a technical perspective, we should be aware that technical approaches that could solve this are in engineering trade-offs their intention with each other.

For example, how long it takes to charge could be solved from a consumer perspective by making the range of the electric vehicle ridiculously high. You could stick a ton of battery in it, but that in turn creates a whole bunch of challenges weights, energy efficiency, and cost. It’s going to be really heavy and it will have to consume a lot of energy just to push all of the battery around and it’s going to cost a fortune.

What we can do with these data points that we’re generating and the models that we’re putting together, and why they’re ultimately useful is that it highlights where innovation intervention, where we can point engineering and scientific talent. We can point it at where it would have the greatest impact.

Joan: That’s really interesting. As you say, as a car user, you just want to be able to get in the car and drive it. You don’t want to have to think about, is it going to run out of juice when I am halfway to my destination? It’s an interesting one. Robert, I’m sure you’ve got things that you’d like to Ed’s comments.

Robert: I do. I’ll just start with a little bit of background. Patents are a way that people are able to protect their ideas, typically ideas of things that they want to commercialize, whereas trademarks are protection for things that are actually on sale. Trademark data is a great way to look at commercial activity. When someone files a trademark, it means they’re about to sell something not that they’re thinking about selling something in five years’ time.

When you look at the trademark data around the electric vehicle field, you see two interesting things. First of all, the obvious stuff, people started filing trademarks for electric vehicles back in the 1990s in particular and it’s accelerated ever since then. You also see trademark applications being filed for charging stations and the infrastructure around that but there’s a difference between those two in that there’s an enormous lag.

As I mentioned, electric vehicles started appearing as commercial products 20, even nearly 30 years ago. It’s only in the last few years that we’ve seen the commercialization of the charging infrastructure. There’s a big lag and I think there’s still a lot of catching up to do in that sense but there are some interesting things emerging just recently, for example, Tesla only a couple of months ago filed some us trademark applications for their, how smart Tesla, for restaurant services. You think, what’s that got to do with electric vehicles. They’re not selling enough cars, they want to sell hamburgers instead?

Actually, it’s potentially a very clever way of solving one of the issues around charging. I don’t know about you, but I find it a pain to go and spend even just three minutes putting petrol in my car. I resent it. I don’t want to do it. I’ve got better things to do. You never run out of petrol at a good time. It’s always when you’re busy. Now an electric car that takes 30 minutes or an hour or four hours to charge, that terrifies me.

Joan: You’re going to have to factor that into your extremely busy day. Aren’t you?

Robert: Exactly. “I’ll just be back in four hours. I got to put some electricity in the car.” It’s just not going to work. I live in an apartment block where there’s around about a hundred apartments. I can’t just run a power cable out my window to my car because my car might be half a kilometer away. Charging home’s not really going to work for me either.

Joan: Trip hazard.

Robert: Exactly. Imagine a thousand of those cords. It doesn’t mess thinking about, but what Tesla is hinting at is the idea that you know what? Accept that it’s going to take a little while to charge an electric car, but let’s find places where people are happy to leave their car for half an hour or an hour. A restaurant is a great example. Drive to the restaurant, go to the restaurant, have dinner, come back, get in your car. It’s fully charged because it was charged while you were having your meal.

Joan: It’s like valet charging, like valet parking, let’s have a valet charging.

Robert: It is and it’s just thinking about, where is that car going to be for maybe half an hour or an hour and it’s not being used and it’s not an inconvenience if it’s being charged at that time? Convenience stores or grocery shopping, we typically spend 30 to 60 minutes doing our grocery shopping if we go to a store. If you charge the car and the car park, then that’s problem solved.

There’s actually some history to this because if you go back to the early 1900s, there were a couple of brothers in France who set up something called the Michelin Guide. The Michelin Guide was set up by these two brothers because they had a tire company and they wanted to encourage people to use their car.

They did that by publishing this guide that not only showed restaurants and how good they were and where they’re located, but the early Michelin Guides also included maps and details of petrol stations. You can actually find where to put petrol in your car when you’re out touring to go to your restaurant. There’s a lot of history there already.

Joan: That is so impressive. It’s impressive how much we can glean if we dig a little bit deeper, not just into patent data and intelligence, but when something like what you’ve just said, that’s extraordinary. It never occurred to me that that was how the Michelin Guide originated. When we look at the insights from different intellectual property, asset classes from trademarks and IP cases to domains, when they’re all integrated, who knows the sky’s the limit. Ed, let me come back to you here. I think having listened to what Robert has just been suggesting about the valet charging, what would you like to add there?

Ed: I like this phrase digging deeper because it’s quite a good way of phrasing what we’re actually doing and quite a lot of the analysis that we’re applying into this industry is actually really just looking at the footprint of companies as they interact with the government, with the regulatory environment. How, and when they interact with the patent and trademark office, how and when they interact with the court system in terms of litigation or invalidity information.

One of the things that we do, one of the models that we deploy in our advisory and analytics service is an assessment of the maturity of technology using lots of different data points and lots of different– of these ways of interacting with the state but we do it in a way that lines up with the arrow of time, the arrow of development, the natural maturation path and the level of activity.

The way that we do that is by looking at the level of activity from things like academic institutions right now, and the more fundamental research ideas that they tend to contribute to a field. We do things like the shape of those curves, I keep mentioning, but also how often the ideas in an individual technology are cropping up in enforcement activity and that the litigation data sets that David was talking about, is it often, or is it not yet apparent?

Litigation activity is actually a really big flag for commercial uptick because you actually can’t infringe a pattern unless something’s on sale. It needs to be in the commercial world. Then we can look at how much is battery technology, charging technology, automotive communication technology appearing in the court system. When we do all of that on all of the different subsystems in a car, the chassis, the battery, the powertrain, the dashboard, and the aids around the driver at the steering wheel, we get a really interesting additional data point.

One of the more immature technology platforms is again, charging systems. It actually comes out in our model as more immature than autonomous technologies. With Robert’s earlier points around the lag and charging trademark registration, it’s clear that we’ve got this gap in the EV ecosystem.

Joan: Thanks Ed for that – well there’s plenty more on this topic to dive into and so please take a breather everyone and join us for part 2 when we’ll be discussing the role of digital tech with EVs, competition in the EV marketplace and the panel’s hopes on where EV tech will take us in the next 10 years…


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